Ian Cook is an advocate for the crucial role that people play in helping companies thrive. His career has focused on enabling people, teams and companies to perform at their best. For the last 15 years, Ian has been helping leaders elevate their HR strategies and programs through the effective use of People Analytics. At Visier, Ian led the development of their market-leading solution and now leads the overall strategy for the People Analytics business.
In this episode, Ian talks about the evolution of HR and people analytics from research group to strategic function.
[0:00 – 3:34] Introduction
- Welcome, Ian Cook!
- Today’s Topic: The Evolution of People Analytics From Research Group to Strategic Partner, Past, Present, & Future
[3:34 – 11:10] How is the Practice of People Analytics Changing?
- Shifting from simply measuring to analyzing data
- Creating a language that talks about business in terms of people
[11:11 – 18:49] What is Causing the Evolution and Is It a Fad or a Permanent Shift?
- “Rebranding” HR as People Analytics
- People Analytics getting attention from to executives
[18:50 – 26:07] What Could People Do to Take Advantage of These Changes?
- Leveraging People Analytics to empower “front line” workers
- Seeing a rise in people analytics educational content
[26:08 – 28:11] Final Thoughts & Closing
- Episode summary
- Ian shares his closing thoughts
Connect with Ian:
Connect with Dino:
Connect with David:
Resources:
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“The ultimate goal is to really enable people managers in a way that they can create a good experience for people in a way they couldn’t in the past.”
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“Don’t wait until you’re data’s perfect; the only way you learn is to start now.”
Announcer:
Here’s an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology. Invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what’s happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, core their discussions into a beaker. Mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR data labs Podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, but count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here’s your host, David Turetsky.
David Turetsky:
Hello, and welcome to the HR data labs podcast. I’m your host, David Turetsky. Like always, we try and find you the most fascinating people to talk to throughout the world and inside and outside the world of HR. Today we have with us Dino Zincarini. Hello Dino.
Dino Zincarini:
Hello, David.
David Turetsky:
And Ian cook from Visier. How are you Ian?
Ian Cook:
Doing well. Thanks, David. Thanks for having me on.
David Turetsky:
Our pleasure. For those of you who have not heard about Ian Cook, and you’re listening to a podcast about people analytics, listen to some of our other podcasts with Ian because he’s fascinating. He’s brilliant. And he is one of the reasons why I love people analytics, because I learned so much every time I talked to him. If you have not heard about Ian, go listen to our former podcasts. If you have heard of Ian, one thing that you may not know about Ian, we’d like to get a new nugget. Every time we talk to him is early on in his career. He worked in Romania. And what did you do in Romania?
Ian Cook:
That’s true. So I worked in overseas aid, there was a big phase where the Romanian government had been toppled. And it was moving into a more democratic state soldier. I was in the north of Romania working with an overseas aid organization, I opening eye opening experience. And yeah, something I still remember.
David Turetsky:
Wow, that must have been really life changing, too.
Ian Cook:
Yeah, it was it definitely sent me on a path around the work I do.
David Turetsky:
And you continue doing good work. And that’s part of some of the stuff that I appreciate about you, even within the people, I know community driving toward a more open people analytics world, right?
Ian Cook:
That’s Yeah, absolutely. The key for me is people will say, Oh, we know we’re going to get the best out of people. And I just think that misperception, people only give you their best if they choose to do it. So they, you know, trying to use data to control people is only ever going to fail, it really has to be about how do we help enable people to give their best, I think data is a key part of that. But that’s a big part of what drives me to participate in the field. And again, many others like yourselves who share that same mission, it’s the right way to go about doing it.
David Turetsky:
Absolutely. So today, our topic is going to be something that’s obviously near and dear to all three of our hearts, which is the evolution of the people analytics practice, from what had become a research group to what is now being really kind of migrating towards a strategic function.
Ian Cook:
Yeah, absolutely. It’s interesting, because there’s, there’s been waves of this development, a lot of organizations were kind of getting started, many organizations are still getting started. And yet, some of the leaders are really transforming where they connect into the business of who they connect into what the actual remit of the function is. And then you know, everything else from there. I think there’s a lot to unpack in here, David, it’s a fascinating topic.
David Turetsky:
Awesome. Let’s get started. So the first question I have for you, Ian, and Dino is how has the practice of people analytics change over the years? And where does it come from? Or is it going?
Ian Cook:
So when people analytics first started, when I was first into it, a lot of it was about measuring HR activity. And you know, you may remember some of this yourself, David Dino is like, how many performance reviews have we done? Yeah, how many people did we hire, it was very much a measurement of x, administrative volume in order to show that we were busy, like that’s kind of where we started. And then often it was done as an after the fact like, Oh, we’ve done a bunch of stuff. Let’s do some measurement and show the business we’ve we’ve earned our key because we were working hard. Well, the next wave, which is probably the last 10 to 12 years, was really a wide call it the project or exploration phase. What we were looking at all this reports of people leaving like what well why are they leaving? And what can we do with that? Is that way we can use it. And so lots and lots of project work to understand that, that the way you I think we’re in now is more of this, you know, product delivery, how do we how do we use the insight to improve a decision at scale, broadly across the business so we kind of, again, different organizations at different phases, but we’re seeing this productization of intelligence from people data, deploying out across the business as this, where the leading practitioners are going.
David Turetsky:
What’s fascinating is when I started in people analytics, it really came as a offshoot of my compensation function. And I was asked to do headcount reporting. And that was critical to the business. We were heavily into mergers and acquisitions at the time at the bank that I was in. And one of the key metrics that the board was looking at was, how many people how many bodies do we have? In the first thing we actually had to do was come up with what the definition and do some data governance work and say, What is the definition of a person, because it mattered because on a global basis, we were a global company on a global basis, we didn’t even have that definition. So we really starting out at square one of saying, Yes, we have different HR systems, yes, we have different notions about what the stuff is, let’s all get on the same page. So we understand what we’re actually measuring.
Ian Cook:
I think that’s a really good place to start the conversation as well. Because if we look at it, I often draw the parallels to finance, you know, finances has this governance methodology, this is how we record revenue. This is how we record cost, etc, what HR hasn’t had, and what that whole governance phase has done is give us that standardized approach. It’s given us that core platform upon which we can then build and start to use it. So we were sort of following the same path to finance where it started as a no standardized recording project project. Now, if you’re looking about an FP&A, or like a, you know, an analyst function within finance, it’s really is about good driving future business value. So we needed to do all that governance work, but a lot of that’s been standardized is now where do we go from there? Dino you look like you’re gonna jump in?
Dino Zincarini:
Yeah, no, you just you triggered a topic that I like to talk about. I’ve written about this one. And it’s it’s a tricky one, because I agree with you. That, you know, we started to build that practice along the way finance did, as essentially creating the language to measure the business that isn’t just about money. It’s also measuring the business in terms of our talent and our people and the impact that we have, I’ve always found that it’s a challenge to get the business to incorporate that into their language. No, it’s most managers have a budget, they work from that budget. But being able to incorporate the language of people analytics into how we talk about the performance of our business, is a bigger challenge. I’m wondering if you’ve experienced that if you have any thoughts?
Ian Cook:
Definitely experienced it. For me, it’s one of the founding reasons I came into people analytics is to form that that bridge to be that connector, like, no people are having an effect on your revenue, whether you see it or not, it’s it’s that’s in my mind, that’s automatically true. What you highlight Dino is exactly the complexity of this is like so how is that I think the current resignation wave is really elevating people’s interest in paying attention. Because to your point, David, when you don’t have the bodies to open the doors to run the cash register to make the money, then it is like, Oh, right, people are actually important to my business.
Dino Zincarini:
That’s a great example. Because I think one of the things that I’ve always tripped up on is, if we can’t measure it in terms of money, nobody wants to pay attention to it, right? And turnover. Cost is one of these dark arts in HR, in my opinion, you know, like, you can come up with a number. But is it really the right number? Is that accurate? I mean, most of the time, we’re making a wild guess. Yes. Yeah. Cuz we some costs just don’t show up on an invoice. Right? And so it’s pretty hard, if you know, and yet, if you have turnover, if you don’t have somebody to staff, the cash register, as you mentioned, it’s pretty obvious you have a problem, right? So if you’re just looking at the cost analysis, to figure out if you have a problem, you’re going to miss some of these things that are really obvious to everybody else. And I think that’s the opportunity for us, right is we can create a language that talks about the business that’s people centric, and not just about money, because there’s a lot of cases where we see the impact. We know the impact. It’s intuitive, it’s obvious, and yet it doesn’t come through the numbers,
David Turetsky:
Yes but the problem is that HR kind of caused that itself. We put metrics and dashboards out there, and we put these wild ass guesses pardon me, I forget what the acronym was for it. But we put these guesses together about costs and the cost of turnover. And the business leaders would look at it and say that’s a made up number. We didn’t come up with this stuff from what are you guys thinking about? Don’t you guys have an MBA? You guys have a college degree? And some of it’s insulting, but some of it is true because we shot ourselves in the foot, we would point to a number and say that’s the number and they’d say, I can poke 1000 holes in the number. Why do you do That’s a soft number. Yeah. And so we have to have the real business data behind it. Like Ian said, What’s the revenue number that’s caused by that person not being at the cash register?
Ian Cook:
Yeah. And that’s, that’s one of the things we’re starting to see. See, in terms of the the evolution, you know, driven by the different by the sophistication in the, in the groups that we’re working with, given driven by the needs in the business climate is people starting to put that production, the outcome data, aligned to turnover, aligned to vacancy aligned to escalating costs of talent, to kind of say, actually, real people are having an impact. And we’re also seeing people, more managers, having an awareness of the differentiation that people bring. And so you’re looking for ways, especially if we get into the equity component, I can no longer just rely on my friends, I need some more equitable, equitable way to understand who’s good, who’s brilliant, who’s good enough, you know, and how I form that team up so that there’s lots of pressures on really, you know, finding the best people and helping people be their best. Right, but it’s driving that that deeper need.
David Turetsky:
So I think that brings us to the next question in, which is, what is causing the evolution inside of HR? And is it just something that is a fad that will just go away in a couple years? Or is this a real permanent shift, and HR has now grown up to the extent where it can actually be looked to for answers.
Ian Cook:
I’m firmly of the view as a permanent shift, and I cannot keep track of the labor market. We are, we’re not in Kansas anymore, Toto, the, the the movements in the labor market are somewhat permanent. And that will resettled to some new, stable state, but it won’t be the way it was. So it’s going to be different going forward. Other things that we’re seeing is that the SEC, we’ve talked about this before, but I’ve had reached out from three or four CHROs who’ve been tapped by their CEO, because the board is now asking, well, are we on top of our people data? Can we do this disclosure, and that’s a permanent shift that is a, you know, regulatory, right framework. It’s evolving. So you know, it’s that, for me is saying this isn’t this is not a fad, it’s actually a necessary part of infrastructure. Other things we’re seeing as groups moving from being the people analytics team to being the HR Strategy Group, right, I was talking with, like the literally five, senior experienced PA leaders a couple of weeks ago, and all of them are direct reports to the CHRO, they are the strategy brain alongside the chro to build out how do we go about winning in the world of work? And the analytics is in that.
David Turetsky:
Is there a use case? Sorry? And is there a use case to actually not having this in HR at all, and having it separate, or maybe he was part of the finance organization, to do board more work across the organization instead of being No offense, HR saddled with the word HR?
Ian Cook:
So I think that’s an we’ve, I’ve often pivoted to the position of people, as opposed to HR because I think you’re right, there is a this baggage, I rarely introduced myself as an HR person, because I fear the baggage that is unfairly often carried with that, at the same time, I’ve, I’m cautious on just handing it to the finance group. Because invariably, their view of what the problem is, is doesn’t reflect the problem. So it’s it, there’s a synthesis happening. And in many ways across many parts of business, where it’s like, it’s the, it’s the mind frame that says, Let’s go chase dollars, with the social frame of let’s understand people, you know, we again, I don’t have any evidence for this, but where we see success, it’s where those two things live together in the business. Sure, through the people function.
David Turetsky:
I mean, there are established Shared Services functions that do I mean, HR tech sometimes is a shared services function, even outside of HR, outside of payroll outside of the IT organization, where it sits in its own little bubble. And maybe it reports the CIO member maybe even reports to the head of HR, but it’s still a separated function. In that same way. I’ve also seen some DE&I groups that had been separated out of HR in order to be able to remove themselves and not have the reporting structure issue. Like I can do investigations across the organization without worrying about, you know, somebody getting in the way.
Ian Cook:
Interesting. So yes, I think that’s a I think that’s a smart approach to doing that. The alternative is you hire the CHRO. That actually makes all that work. Sure. You wouldn’t talk about marketing living outside of the CMOS remit. You wouldn’t talk about operations reporting living outside of the CEO We met so, you know, I think there’s that interesting dynamic around Well, what is actually truly needed for a CH ro and really interesting Richard Rosenow, somebody I follow a lot a lot of respect for from Nike hosted. Yeah, he posted on LinkedIn a job requirement, which had six years of people analytics, specified for a CHRO. Wow, that’s crazy. First time ever, I’d never seen it before. So it was one of these like moments, but it’s like that is so it’s it’s indicative of the shift that you’re talking about David? Like, how do we move through the knowledge required to really leverage this capacity for the business.
David Turetsky:
One thing that scares me a little bit, though Ian is setting ourselves up for a little bit of failure there. Because the HR organization, as we’ve been talking about gets saddled unfairly sometimes with that soft skills kind of view. And what I’m talking about bringing them outside of HR, to some extent, I’m trying to shield them shield the people analytics team maybe from having that shackle. But if we can get a good strong CHRO and Zoe Switzer from Jenny’s Splendid Ice Cream, I’ll point to her she’s definitely kind of raised the bar in my mind. And Paul Rubenstein as well has also raised the bar to where they have kind of taken the mantle of, I’m going to do people analytics, and I want to see how it affects my business and how I can positively affect my business. You know, that’s where you can say it should stay in HR, otherwise? I don’t know.
Ian Cook:
Nope. Yes, I think those are, those are really well made points. One of the other trends that we are seeing is actually a lot of people analytics groups have tried to go to the business through the HR business partner, that was kind of the classic assumed path, right? We’re seeing more and more organizations actually put a people unless alongside the HR business partner. So instead of trying to translate the HR business partner into an analyst, you know, difficult translation, they’re actually doubling up. So creating a parallel structure. And it creates that, that separation and ability to operate, exactly as you’re highlighting David. So they sort of do live in this, let’s just call it shadow HR world. Technically, they’re the chro. But they don’t operate in any way through the existing structures of the HR group. Done because they found the kind of limitations and impacts that you’re talking about. So we’re seeing that as an emerging practice, we’re seeing great results from it. So, you know,
David Turetsky:
I imagine it’s really hard to try and find HR generalists who have good backgrounds in statistics and econometrics.
Ian Cook:
Yes, it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s not a classic interest for people who’ve gone into that aspect of work or in work for those reasons. It’s, you know, it is not until a couple of years ago, was it ever taught as a core part of an HR course. And invariably, when you’re really interested in people and helping them navigate work, now, there’s only a small portion of those that have really got that strong statistical background. So it is, you wouldn’t, there are, there are a few and an increasing number, but it’s certainly not a core component, that HR business partner population, hence the need to sort of double up and build out structures that go through that.
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David Turetsky:
So Ian, we’ve had some great conversations about the practice and how it’s changing. We talked about the evolution. What about your advice to people, practically speaking, how can they take advantage of this stuff? Because they’re at all ends of the spectrum? Yeah, where can they go? So what are we gonna do?
Ian Cook:
One, one of the one of the first things we see is this whole trying to dabble on the investment and trying to get off the edge of the desk. And then you and I’ve talked about this a lot of dividends, I think what they can take heart from is presenting to the business, their funders, the kinds of outcomes that are possible, you know, simple examples of changes in shift structure in response to the great resignation wave, that are helping the business and painting a picture of how this will help the business. So that the required funding levels are, are understood. And so the whole business kind of going in is open. Like, this isn’t actually us, finding a colorful way to count HR activity. It’s actually as bringing a strategic level of capability, but that there’s a journey to get there. So when as you’re using the case studies to build the funding case. The second piece is to tap into that practice knowledge. You know, lots of people as you say, more people are starting than a finished in this world. So it’s it’s us accessing all of that practice knowledge just to follow the paths that have been proven, and not go down all the dead ends that you had, like us have have explored in our pasts.
Dino Zincarini:
One of the dangers I’ve seen with with this, especially the idea that, you know, you’re kind of mining for insight you’re creating insights you’re building cases for things HR wants to do, is that it orients, the analytics function, kind of up the chain, to executives, and at the expense of telling these stories, to everyday managers, to catering to what a manager would need, in order to run his or her team more effectively. Do you see that there’s a balance between the two? are, are the people analytics strategy team, for example, really focusing on both sides? Or is it really just to help the executives know that define and execute their strategy?
Ian Cook:
Our groups are focusing on both sides, because invariably, they’re going to the business unit leader, not saying what do you own business unit leader, but what is your What do your business leaders need to run their operation effectively? And so this is where it flips from being? No, here’s HR stuff we’re curious about to hear is business stuff that is the this drive to productization is here is a product for the 20 managers who are running this production line. And it’s no sponsored by the business unit leader with the requirements from those people, managers driven down into a fast cycle, repeatable consumable piece of work. That’s that’s the automation productization of people on the leading edge, that’s our leading players. But, you know, there is there is a reason to focus on the business unit leader because the done and well that my experience of that is like I want my people to have this. So it’s not that you ignore them. But there is a path to and I would agree with you Do you know, like the ultimate goal of this is to really enable people managers in a way that they can create a good experience for people in a way they couldn’t in the past. I think the path of that is through business unit engagement, alignment, connection, so that it’s like, wow, what would happen if all my people could do this?
Dino Zincarini:
Yeah, I think that’s important. It’s, you know, I’ve often worked on the strategy side of things and strategy is important. It’s measuring outcomes, right? But how do you generate the outcomes, the outcomes are generated from the other side, the executives aren’t generating the outcomes. And so if we really want to change the business, if we want to improve the business, it’s not just about looking at the executives and giving them charts, it’s about engaging the front line, and showing them how with new insights, they can make better choices. So it’s good to hear that it’s on both sides. I think that you know, engaging the organization broadly is is a tough one. It’s something that you know, with finance, it’s easier, it’s like, here’s your budget, you have to stick to it. Because if you don’t, we’re not going to hire those people, we’re gonna fire you. Yeah, there’s a bit of a carrot and a stick here with people analytics, it’s a little bit softer. So it’s sometimes harder to get people to adopt something that they don’t have to use.
Ian Cook:
No for sure. And that’s probably one of the other pieces of advice, David, that we would say, like, lots of HR folks look at people unless as a program, like a performance management program, are going to do for everybody day one. And that’s fundamentally not true. It actually is better to start small, start focused, get build a cadence of results, as opposed to a blanket wash with, you know, oh, here’s the dashboard for the business, we hope you like it, where that puts is taken, we do see adoption challenges, because like, well, something else I have to look at like why,
David Turetsky:
Right. Well, one of the things I wish our teams in HR would do would be to look at some of the many and really cool HR analytics programs that exist from the colleges and from Udemy. And some from some organizations that are actually putting out people analytics courseware that say, can you get your start in this by getting a certification or getting some education first, and then once you’re mature enough and understand it, and I don’t mean to turn in a human and get in the wrong way. So I apologize if you took it that way, everybody. But if you have more maturity around people analytics, then you when you do try and dip your toe in, you’ll realize it’s not about your toe, it’s about the water. And it’s about making sure that your organization’s ready for. Yeah, absolutely. And that is one of the other I guess one of the other really telling components right now is, first of all, they the research is showing the amount of funding going into people analytics roles. And then as you say that the number of university based or online based or the substantive content that is now available to get educated, it is moving the field forward in powerful ways. We have I think, without that education, the stuff you and Dino were just talking about being able to be different to enable real business level conversations with your leaders about the numbers. I don’t think HR I mean unless we’re hiring people analytics people who have six years and people analytics and I don’t know that many people that have six years yet, people analytics. But but until we can get to that stage where you’re getting good, good people who have that background, it’s gonna be hard.
Ian Cook:
It is going to be hard it I think it is gonna be hard I again, I think there’s a number of factors that are increasing the amount of cost for those, those players at the same time I’m seeing a lot of people coming in from outside of HR, who’ve always had an interest in people who already have the business acumen. And so that starts to become an element where speed to success can come from outside of the function. The number of finance people I’ve actually talked to is like You know what, I kind of got bored with finance this people stuff, it’s it’s uncharted, it’s, it’s unsolved, like it’s really interesting. So yes.
David Turetsky:
And we don’t have rules like we had in finance.
Ian Cook:
Not yet, they’re coming.
David Turetsky:
Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Nice. So Ian and Dino, we talked a lot about where people analytics has been and where it’s going we’ve talked about the evolution and how we think this is going to be a permanent shift, and I sure as heck hope so. And we’ve also talked a little bit about some advice about how companies and people can get their start in an Eon and Dino any other wisdom words of wisdom before we
Ian Cook:
My only word of wisdom is don’t wait till you date is perfect. The only way you learn is to start now.
Dino Zincarini:
And I think you were talking before about starting small and nothing sells anything you build like success. So having some small group that has adopted it seen some some success, and we’ll talk about that is the best adoption strategy that I’ve seen work. So start small with an enthusiastic early adopter, show some success, and then talk about that. Help them talk about it.
David Turetsky:
Great. Ian, thank you very much again. Welcome. Dino. thank you as always
Dino Zincarini:
A pleasure.
David Turetsky:
And thank you for listening. We hope you enjoyed this podcast and we hope that if you did find value in it that you could send it to your friends and especially if they love people analytics are interested in it. And if you need more information about it, please go to Turetsky consulting.com slash podcast. And thank you very much and hope to have you listened to our future podcasts. Please stay safe.
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