Have you ever worked with people who are scared of numbers but still want them? Steve McDonell jumped into the world of People Analytics after being a CIO for several years. As CIO, his role was to help clients understand the need for people analytics and how to adopt them as a part of their business strategy. In his work he found that there was one common thing amongst the clients, people want people analytics, but they really have no idea what it is or what it means, and in some cases even fear it.
Let’s dive in and learn how we can present People Analytics in a way that is less intimidating and more intuitive.
[00:01 – 04:59] Opening Segment
- Dwight and I welcome and learn more about Steve McDonell
- Today’s topic – People want People Analytics, but have no idea what it is
[05:00 – 12:00] Approaching People Analytics As a CIO in an Organization
- From IT to leveraging tech to understand a business
- You need to be strategic and consultative
- Mastering and navigating software to give an extra sense of security
[12:01 – 17:39] How to Overcome the Biggest Hurdles
- Turning information into conversations
- Crawl, Walk, Run, Fly Model
- Have a plan in place with the right people
[17:40 – 29:17] Where to Start; Start Small and Build Up
- Everything comes back to people data
- Education through conversation
- Figure out the small challenges and make a plan
[29:18 – 32:44] Closing Segment
- Summary of our conversation and final points
Resources:
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“People do have this fear of numbers, but it really gets down to the fundamental fact we need to talk about, what we want to measure, why we want it measured, and then figure out a way to present it so it’s not so intimidating.” – Steve McDonell
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“There’s a really big education component from parts of the organization and It’s really about meeting people where they are.” – Steve McDonell
Announcer:
Here’s an experiment for you. Take passionate experts in human resource technology, invite cross industry experts from inside and outside HR. Mix in what’s happening in people analytics today. Give them the technology to connect, hit record, pour their discussions into a beaker, mix thoroughly. And voila, you get the HR data labs Podcast, where we explore the impact of data and analytics to your business. We may get passionate and even irreverent, but count on each episode challenging and enhancing your understanding of the way people data can be used to solve real world problems. Now, here’s your host, David Turetsky.
David Turetsky:
Hello, and welcome to the HR data labs podcast. I’m your host, David Turetsky. And like always, I try and find fascinating people inside and outside the world of human resources to provide you with context for the impact of HR data and analytics to the business. Today, I have my friend Steve McDonell, with me who I have worked with in the past and was fortunate also to work with as a client, when I worked in my previous role at ADP. And Steve is a self described great person who jumped into the people analytics after having been a CIO for many years. So why don’t you tell us a little bit more about your background?
Steve McDonell:
Yeah, sure. I basically spent 20 years as a CIO at a healthcare organization really kind of building a department from scratch. And once I got through all the other fun stuff, I started working with data, because that was one of the goals we had was to become more data driven across the organization. And that was where I started getting involved with people analytics.
David Turetsky:
And it was wonderful having met you then, and then brought you into the world of people analytics as a consultant. And now you’re back at being a CIO. Yes.
Steve McDonell:
So I’ve returned back to the healthcare space as a CIO and working with an organization and kind of starting over again and living a different kind of life. Now, David, back to what I used to do before.
David Turetsky:
Well, we’re happy to have you on the podcast. We also have as well, Dwight Brown from Turetsky Consulting. Hello, Dwight. Hey, David, how’s it going? I’m great. So one fun thing you may not know about Steve is he only needs to go to six more ballparks to have hit all 30 ballparks in Major League Baseball. That is quite an accomplishment. Steve, you must love baseball.
Steve McDonell:
Yeah, actually, it goes way back to when I was kid playing and then just being here in Pittsburgh when the pirates were in their glory days, which they’re not so much anymore. But yeah, so it was going back to that and baseball cards and all that fun stuff. But it was really what got me into numbers. And statistics is a really, you know, young child just flipping over the back, chewing on that horrible stale bubblegum and reading through statistics, and then starting to play fantasy baseball when I was a little older back before it was online. And we kept track of everything on spreadsheets, which is another problem I have. So anyway,
David Turetsky:
wait, wait, wait before online. What does that mean? It was a time before the internet that time
Steve McDonell:
used to go through the box scores and keep them on? spreadsheet? Yeah, on green bar paper. So that was what got me introduced the green bar as well. So
David Turetsky:
backward K’s at all?
Steve McDonell:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. So yeah, I am down to six ballparks left that I need to get to. So I was delayed by COVID. But I am itching to get back out there for sure.
David Turetsky:
Awesome. Today, we’re gonna be talking about the fact that people may want people analytics, but they have no idea what it is or what it means. And Steve, I know you know that. People get confused what we’re talking about about people analytics. And sometimes they get worried that we’re going to take them back to statistics classes back in college or in high school. And they fear it.
Steve McDonell:
Yeah, I think that’s part of the the challenge too, you know, in my role as a CIO, David, it’s been interesting in the fact that, you know, people do have this fear of numbers. But I think it really gets down to the fundamental fact of that, we’d need to talk about what we want to measure why we want to measure it, and then figure out a way to present it in a way that’s not so intimidating, and really educate people about the value of unleashing the power or democratizing the data that you’re holding in your organization.
David Turetsky:
So Steve you Tell us that, as a CIO, what has been your approach to being able to start to introduce it, and to be able to do that democratization inside your organization?
Steve McDonell:
Well, I think you really have to go back to basics. You know, I think the whole conversation starts around understanding the business. And I think that’s, you know, one of the changing roles that has happened in the CIO space over the past 10 to 15 years is that, you know, traditionally a CIO was always a technical it type role. But now, it’s really evolved into more of understanding the business and leveraging the technology to really help meet business goals. And you know, I’ve been doing that for a very long time. And one of the big goals is really, like I said, around using that data. And to do that, effectively, you have to understand what the business does, what drives success in the business, and then start looking at what people need to measure to help them succeed even more than they have up to this point. But you know, to me, it really goes to that understanding, and then talking about what you want to measure why you need to measure it, what’s considered success, and then thinking about the data that you already have, which is another conversation in and of itself, because the quality of the data really is fundamental to a lot of things that we work around.
David Turetsky:
And I think we’re gonna explore a lot of those avenues. But one of the things I think you said that was fascinating, was, you’re speaking about the CIO, really, as a consultant, and about how the CIO can help improve the lives of the people inside the organization by being able to try and help them solve some of the business problems that they’re dealing with, which is not what we think of when we think of a CIO typically.
Steve McDonell:
Yeah, and like I said, I think it’s changed that role. It’s really a strategic and leadership role, much more than has been in the past. So, you know, making the commitment to do that, it really is tough at times, because we do have that traditional take on it. So a lot of times to, you know, in my role that people will ask me, well, you’re the CIO, why are you working with us on data for a while, it’s because it’s all systems based. And it’s about understanding the business, you know, we’re not in the it roll as much anymore that, you know, keep the lights on five nines reliability, it’s really that consultative and more strategic role in the organization. And, you know, and the organization that I just joined, you know, the person who was there before me was a really technical person, or really tactical person. And that was fine, probably for the organization 1520 years ago, but right, you know, now, the organization is transformed, the world outside is transformed. And, you know, we really need to have that strategic component. So, you know, we’ve done some restructuring and brought some folks in to handle some of that stuff. But we’re also offloading that to web based services. So we can pivot from being tactical to being a strategic player and consulting across the organization.
David Turetsky:
So it’s kind of funny, one of the things that we’ve talked about on previous episodes of the HR data labs podcast is that the nature of data in organizations has changed because of a lot of the innovations that have happened in the world of databases and online storage. And so, you know, I know it impacts the CIOs office, because as you said, there are some there’s some blocking and tackling that you don’t need to worry about anymore. Because it’s being solved by the cloud. Do you think it’s the cloud? Do you think it’s like services like AWS, and security services as well, that have made your life? Well, some some ways a little bit more of a nightmare, but in some ways, much easier?
Steve McDonell:
You know, I think it really depends on how you’re structured as an IT organization. So you know, we really wanted to pivot towards that point of being more strategic. So some of the initiatives that I’ve done in the past and I’m doing currently are really taking that offload and really transferring it to organizations who provide more in depth services and supports on hardware refreshes, software upgrades and handle that on the back end, security, intrusion detection and monitoring. You know, that’s something that in a lot of organizations, and midsize, you don’t really have the expertise or the resources to do that from a budget perspective, so offloading that helps me sleep a lot better at night.
David Turetsky:
Absolutely. Well, it gives you somebody net to choke. But we’ve seen a lot of and certainly lately with the you know, things like Microsoft in the news, from a positive perspective of finding some of the ways in which hackers have gone into the government systems and found intrusions. Some of it must give us pause for concern, especially when we’re dealing with extremely sensitive data, whether it’s employee data, or the healthcare data or the data of our clients. So I’m sure that does keep you up at night as well, though.
Steve McDonell:
Yeah, but I know that those folks are in the business to basically provide those services and it’s their life’s blood and like I said, they have the resources of a multibillion dollar organization to support that. So yeah, but the the supply chain attacks that are happening, they’re definitely concerning solar winds being one issue, and then the recent piece with Microsoft. And, you know, I think that that is definitely challenging. But I think the thing that it does do for us, it does give a lot of more sense of security and reliability. So it’s, it’s a risk reduction for us from where we are, but there is still risk involved with it, for sure.
David Turetsky:
So as you just said, though, what you’re doing is you’re transitioning from having to focus on those blocking and tackling aspects, which are really critical to now being consultative to your business. because that meant that you’ve had to change the people who work in the IT organization as well.
Steve McDonell:
Yeah, so it’s really kind of a different skill set. You know, right now, the organization where I am, we’re in transition. So we’re working on a lot of the different blocking and tackling pieces. And partnering with outside vendors kind of help us transition. But as part of that, we’re kind of splitting the IT department into two different groups. And one is that day to day support piece of it. But the other piece is really around becoming more strategic. So it’s working with the verticals, on specific reporting, issues around different types of products that we use in the enterprise. It’s project management, its business analysis, and then also we have a huge training need that needs to be met internally, as well. So we’re partnering with folks, we’re also working to increase our communication and touch points with regular drop ins to departmental meetings, regular meetings with the rest of the C suite individually. And then also reaching out with organization wide technology teams and providing spots for people to have conversations about all things it related, including data through dropping sessions as well.
David Turetsky:
So now that you’re becoming more statistically focus, or more business issue, focus. So let’s get back to the people analytics part of this then. So now that you’ve pivoted, and you’re starting to provide more context around the organization, what have you found that have been the biggest hurdles that you have to overcome in order to be able to provide that context? Wow. Sorry, was that too much?
Steve McDonell:
No, I just wish there was only one hurdle. Right. So I think, you know, it’s kind of interesting, you know, one of the things that I have done over the years is and maybe to a fault is just brutal honesty. Right? So, you know, I think one of the things that comes into play with a lot of what we’re talking about is people want to see a report, right? Or they’ll just use to get a report. So even then, it’s a conversation about what are you using this report? Why do you need it? What does it do for you? So it really starts about, you know, educating people about using data and what that data is, or the other side of that is, we have a department that runs reports has been running reports, then you talk to the people that they send the reports to, they’re not using them, right. So you know, for this approach, we really kind of looked at every system that we’re looking at, in terms of, you know, regular usage, and starting to think about what information we have in them, but how we can use the information there with what we already collect, to start having conversations about what does a report look like? What does a dashboard look like? What do you want to see monthly, quarterly, what parts of the organization and levels of the organization need to see what when, but that we’re also starting to have meetings around talking about the data itself, and then having the conversations but in the end comes down to the data. And so we’re starting really, really small with really basic stuff, to really start educating people about, you know, the importance of the quality of your data and who owns data. And I think that’s where it really has to start, you know, in some parts of the organization or in different levels of competency around it, but also quality. So it’s a struggle, but I am usually the bearer of bad news. So when it comes to data,
Dwight Brown:
And people, you know, one of the one of the biggest issues is that people oftentimes will see bright shiny things out there. And they’ll, I would imagine, they come to you and say, hey, I want this. And you have a little bit more in depth conversation with them and you find out, it’s not at all what they need. And of course, they want to spend bazillions of dollars to get to this bright, shiny thing that they heard about at some conference. And you know, so getting back to what you were talking about with having that brutal honesty about where you are and what you think you’re capable of producing is so key. And all of this I would imagine.
Steve McDonell:
Yeah, and that definitely comes into play Dwight, I think, you know, I usually talk about The crawl, walk run fly model, right? So, you know, in a lot of people, you know, they want to go right to fly. And that’s that bright, shiny object, you know, they want dashboards that you can drill down into four levels of detail. And then when you start sitting down and looking at everything around it, and what has to go into that all the Yak shaving you have to do to get there. People don’t really have an appreciation for that. So
David Turetsky:
did you say Yak shaving?
Dwight Brown:
I just got a visual of that.
Steve McDonell:
Oh, yeah, yeah, that goes back to a Ren and Stimpy episode. So Yak shaving, you’re
David Turetsky:
kind of, yeah,
Steve McDonell:
show my age a little bit there. But it’s definitely kind of going down the rabbit hole is another good example of that, or, you know, start lifting up rocks would be another good comparison. But yeah, there’s a lot of Yak shaving that has to happen, for sure. But
David Turetsky:
the problem and I think Red Hook would say this as well is that once you actually give them what they’re asking for, if they did get the shiny object before you did the shaving, they would see what we’ve seen on Ren and Stimpy a number of times, which is a really ugly picture that they’re not ready for. Right? That you know, it’s one of those those close ups on Ren with all of the zits and pimples and hairs coming out of his nose, that that you don’t see when you’re looking, you’re looking from far away. And I’m being very serious when I say this, that, that people when they try and dive into analytics too soon, before they’ve actually gone through the app shaving, it really does give them that that slap in the face moment that you know, you know, ALS challenge, you know, a bucket full of ice water, that, wow, there’s a couple steps back we need to take before we move forward that there is some really bad data here that we need to clean up first.
Steve McDonell:
Oh, yeah, multiple times multiple systems going through it now. It’s just it’s just part of the process. You know, I think that’s, you know, the whole thing of it is you have to have a plan, you know, and work through that plan, and basically have good partners inside the organization. And as some people just, you know, don’t want to do that. They just want the end result. But you know, that’s really not going to get what you need done across the organization. So you know, finding the right partners, building trust, you know, having those relationships in different parts of the organization is really key to part of these really every initiative we do at it, right? Because we’re not driving the business, we’re supporting the business.
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David Turetsky:
So Steve, that brings up the next question, which is the where do you start? And how do you build that momentum to be able to get going on a plan?
Steve McDonell:
Well, I think you start with conversations, you know, figuring out what’s important to different parts of the business is key. But I think, you know, one of the things that everything comes back to is people data, right? So, you know, one of the conversations that I had not in my current role was, you know, we want to measure the quality of the hires of our interviewees, or the people that we hire. So we went through the process and said, Well, my first question was, well, or how are you measuring the quality of a hire? And the answer was, we’re not.
David Turetsky:
So yeah, we
Steve McDonell:
got it, we got to start there. Right? So it starts with a conversation and then you know, across the organization, is this the same metric that you want to use for quality? Is it different in area A versus Area B versus Area C. So it’s really starting with that conversation about what you want to measure. And then having the really thought process to go through and work on a plan. And it’s really about collecting the data if you don’t have it, and agreeing on what that data should look like? I think one of the things that is really interesting, you know, is, hey, we have people put data in the system all the time. But do they know what they’re actually putting it? I’ll give you an example of that. So, you know, in my previous life, I was working with an organization and we were looking at termination reasons as an example. They said, I said, Okay, well, let’s look at your termination reasons. And then I went in and had a conversation after I looked at it, the organization had 52 termination reasons. 52. And it was easy to choose one. And some were so similar, right? That it really was no different. So and then I started talking to people were actually doing the data entry. Well, when do you pick this one? When do you pick this one when you pick this one? And nobody knew. So it’s an education process that goes through this as well. But, you know, going through, it’s really about, you know, having those conversations and understanding what’s important, but then starting to work about, you know, what kind of output Do you want, who’s going to be responsible for doing it, what’s considered success? And then it’s really about looking at the data. You know, some easy things to start with. I always try to start as simple as possible for everybody, you know, Something has to be like through this bi Tableau interface. And it really makes it easier. But you know, you can literally start with sketching things out on a whiteboard, you move to a spreadsheet, take that spreadsheet, make a chart of it, embed it in a site somewhere. And then you know, you update it once a month, once a quarter people have access needed. So it’s really about starting simple with something that you know, really maybe isn’t vitally important, but it’s basic. So you can’t get in and have those conversations about, you know, what our challenges are with data collection, what our challenges are with data entry, what our challenges are, with reporting the data out, and then start working on those. Do you find things like test data that somebody put into a system and never deleted, but when you run a report, it’s still in there, fake individuals, you know, who don’t really exist, test data, duplicate data, so all kinds of different things that you uncover while just having the conversation. But it’s also an opportunity to educate the people that you’re working with, about some of those challenges that we have to overcome as an organization and not just educating the leadership, but really reaching down into the people who are you know, where the rubber meets the road, and help them understand why entering the data consistently, across different data points is so key because it really feeds up to decisions that are going to be made based on this information by senior level executives.
David Turetsky:
Sure. Now, one of the things you said that I think is fascinating is starting small, right? And then being able to educate and be able to get buy in and then move on from there. And one of the things we’re talking about here, since we’re talking about people analytics, there are obvious ones that a lot of times people start with people start with headcount, or people start with turnover rate. And I found and I know, I think you have as well, but I’d like your feedback on this. That one, one of the problems with those are that they’re not really as much strategic as they are diagnostic of certain things. But there’s no strategy and headcount. There’s like, there’s literally zero strategy and a pure headcount number, unless we’re talking to the CFO about budgeting, unless we’re talking to the CIO about how many computers they need. I think that’s something CIOs still do, right. But seriously, though, the fact is, is that sometimes people start with metrics that don’t have as much value, you can get buy in on them, you can get understanding for them, but they don’t have as much value as others, like turnover has some value. But unfortunately, it doesn’t provide enough value, typically to get the eyes or the mindshare of leaders yet. Right. So what I’m saying is, is that if you’re starting small, and you’re starting with those, are there any tips or tricks you can use to get people interested in using them as a strategic tool? What would you say to?
Steve McDonell:
Yeah, what do you think would that is, David is it kind of goes to a leadership thing as well, in that, you know, it’s about you know, going through that process and kind of celebrating those small victories, right. From an analytics perspective. You know, here’s what I would say, with headcount. So this is I’m gonna start, this is a joke, a CIO, a CFO and a CEO and a chro walk into a bar. So they sit down, they have a couple cocktails, and they say, okay, what’s our headcount? And the finance person who heads up payroll says, Well, last month, we paid this many people and gives number one. And then the chro says, Well, you know, I just ran a report yesterday, and right now we have this many active employees gives number B. CIO goes, I don’t care. Just let me know what you want me to report. And the CEO goes, will you people make up your mind?
David Turetsky:
So, you know, Dwight, this sounds like we could make a HR data doodle out of it? Oh, we already did Damn it.
Steve McDonell:
So I think the challenge with this is that, you know, right, it’s a leadership issue, you know, starting simple way, because it does start to allow you to kind of uncover things talk about the the challenge that’s in front of you, but also lets you to do things like you know, once again, I’m going to harp on it is, you know, look at the data, how good is the data? How bad is the data? Is it reliable is it consistently entered across the organization, but it also gives you the ability to go through and talk about different things inside the organization that maybe people haven’t thought of, and finding those small victories, but I think of a single other thing to think about is agreeing on a single source of truth as an organization. So you know, when you look at the quote, unquote bad joke that I started with, you know, different people have different perspectives. So kind of agreeing on what you’re going to measure and how is really kind of one of those things that starts with starting small as well and then as you build momentum What usually happens, David and Dwight is in an organization, somebody will become your champion to go, this is really cool. And then they’ll start showing it to other people. And then other people will come to you and say, Hey, can you do this for my area for my department for my group, and then what you end up doing is you start building that momentum, things percolate up, change doesn’t always come from the top times, you know, I call it the gorilla analytics is what I did in my previous life. Right. And, you know, you just start putting things out there and having conversations and then people are interested in what you’re talking about. So you get a wider audience moving up through director levels, sea levels into the board at points as you start landing these initiatives and kind of expanding your your tendrils, if you will.
David Turetsky:
Do what I was gonna ask you to talk about data governance, and how what Steve brought up was the perfect kind of tie in to what you’ve been talking about in the world of data governance.
Dwight Brown:
Yeah. So definitely, Steve, as you’re, as you’re talking, I’m sitting here nodding my head in agreement, because so often, we go into these things without any data governance structure whatsoever, I mean, zilch. And organizations don’t know about it, or if they do know about it, they don’t know how to do it. And unless you’ve got a good data governance function in there, and not only agreed upon people to do it, but agreed upon ways of doing it, and agreed upon ways of determining at an executive level, what’s going to be the source of truth, what’s going to be the gold standard data, how are we going to define it? What are the business rules around it, those kinds of things, you’re gonna run into those problems that you highlighted with things. You know, for instance, what I think of in the analytics world, we’re starting to see so many systems that are sort of cradle to grave systems. Oftentimes, you implement, you have integration from multiple different systems into one, these software packages have huge report libraries in them, and you get different iterations of the same source data in there, but each one’s reporting it a little bit different. Unless you’ve got that data governance there. And the data quality aspects of things, it’s going to be difficult. So, you know, going back to what you talked about with getting back to the basics, and starting with some sort of data governance that allows you to do that, that says, Okay, what can we bite off here, let’s just bite something off and start working through it, and figure out where we are different so that when we have the CEOs, CHR, CIO, etc, in the bar, everybody is in agreement, and they can move on to the next topic, and still be on the same page with things. So
Steve McDonell:
yeah, and I think the point with that, too, Dwight, is that, you know, you don’t have to do it all at once. Right? Right, you can, you can start something small and say, let’s talk about this. And then what that does is it kind of paves the ground for the next conversation where you’re dealing with maybe data out of the same systems or similar data wherever, then you can say, Okay, well, here, we’re using this as the single source of truth. Does that work for scenario B? And if everybody says, yes, then that becomes a single source of truth. So, you know, doing the, you know, the lifting of rocks, the Yak shaving all that serves so many purposes, towards, you know, building that full analytics package across the organization of you know, what your business intelligence ends up looking like in the long run. So it is definitely a long road to walk. But it is well worth every step.
Dwight Brown:
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.
David Turetsky:
So Steve, we had a really good conversation about the CIOs perspective, how do you roll out people analytic strategy in your organization? We also talked about the hurdles that you need to overcome. And then we talked about how do you get started? And how do you make the plan and where do you start from and, and I think you had some really good advice on that. What other things would you suggest to people as they’re thinking about this from your perspective?
Steve McDonell:
Well, I think the key is, is really understanding, you know, what happens inside the business and what we need to do to be successful. And that takes a lot of listening, and conversation around that. But then once you get through some of that and start talking about the data itself, and how we measure things, there’s a real big education component with different parts of the organization and certainly by meeting people where they are, right. So you know, what I would say is that the biggest hurdle to overcome sometimes is working with inside the organization to kind of talk about what is important and getting agreement. So, with that in mind, sometimes what you need to do is just get started with a small group. Start with a small Project and just just do it don’t worry about, you know, hey, we don’t have a shiny new object here for doing all this through a bi system. But let’s just start simple let’s you know, throw something up on a whiteboard and talk about where the data comes from. And you know, I’ll borrow our I don’t know if it’s copyrighted can be broadcasted, if I say Just do it.
David Turetsky:
You might have to say, copyright,
Steve McDonell:
copyright. So it’s really about just, you know, getting in and digging in, and it’s about rolling up your sleeves and making that commitment to understand. But then also to take a look at the underlying data that you need to kind of dig out. And it’s never a pretty thing, you always find something interesting, but it helps with that education process. And as you build it out, what happens is, you know, you say, Okay, so now we’ve gone from a whiteboard to a spreadsheet to a chart to a website, and maybe you start with one thing, and then you add something else to it, and you refine it. It’s an iterative process, you know, as you go through it. But as you gain wider acceptance inside the organization, things really start to reach that, you know, groundswell of support, and things can move forward. And it kind of helps you pave the way to kind of move it across the rest of the organization.
David Turetsky:
It also paves the way to actually get the money to do it to me, I’m sure success breeds success, because then you actually can prove the ROI, and actually then get money to help finish it.
Steve McDonell:
Yeah. And I think the thing that started starts with is trust, and it’s about those relationships, and you know, bringing people along, meeting them where they are and bringing them along to where they want to be. Right.
David Turetsky:
Thank you, Steve. Joyce, did you have anything else you want to add? No,
Dwight Brown:
I, I think summarized it well. So appreciate you being on
Steve McDonell:
it. It has been my pleasure, gentlemen, and I will say You are welcome. And I am happy to be here and looking forward to any other conversation that this may lead to. So thank you as
David Turetsky:
Outstanding. And thank you for listening. And we hope you enjoyed this episode of the HR data labs podcast. If you liked it, please hit subscribe. If you know somebody who might enjoy it as well, please send it on their way. And thank you very much for listening and stay tuned for future episodes. Please take care and stay safe.
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